So sad to read this dribble in Persuasion. There is only one avenue to peace in the region and that is via an Israeli victory against the Shiite regime. Imagine the region without the Mullahs.
I think it’s unfair to say that Israel basically chose to be a Pariah state. Post 10/7 many states supported Israel and many blamed them. As they defended themselves they were told how to prosecute that defense. The chorus grew that what they were doing was wrong. Now I would argue they were right in most aspects. They went into Rafah when told not to and found hostages and eliminated many senior Hamas officials without increasing civilian deaths dramatically. They decimated Hezbollah leadership with minimal civilian damage. They are vilified for both. If another country in their position, being attacked on multiple fronts by enemies wishing to eliminate them, the world leaders would not treat that state as a pariah. The double standard is quite obvious.
Meanwhile, China is committing REAL genocide against Tibetans and Uyghurs, and who's telling them that they should worry about being considered international pariahs? The hypocrisy is gobsmacking.
"there was absolutely no military reason for Netanyahu not to accept ceasefire talks and wind down the Gaza operation" That head in the sand thinking is why Israel has bounced between one war and another for almost three generations. "No, don't pay any attention to the Nazi's it's just a passing phase." "No, don't pay any intention to the sworn and written Islamic intent to destroy Israel and perhaps its Jewish population with it. It's just a passing phase. " Stop the invasion of Gaza, stop the destruction of Hezbollah and Hamas, give up some land sign a peace deal, it will all work out. So how did that work out after 67, 73, Carter's 78 deal, the 94 deal on Gaza with the PLA, Clintons 00 deal, Sharm el-Sheikh Summit of 2005, the 2006 Lebanon war, the cease fires after the Gaza incursions of 2008, 2012, 2014. Each and every time the ceasefire only allowed the puppets of Iran to rest and reload. Hopefully Jews are not that insane and there founding motto of Never Again will find new meaning. This war requires capitulation, and the stars have aligned for that possibility. Be thankful Israel has leaders that understand this. Israel cannot survive for forever surrounded by pariahs to human civilization!
Here's what I see: The world telling Israel that it shouldn't take vigorous action in its own defense; Israel doing it anyway; Israel proving doubters wrong with effective results; repeat. Only psychos are pro-war in the abstract. But some fights need fighting. I don't know how much death and destruction it's worth to crush Hamas, crush Hezbollah (which, two minutes ago, was the great, invulnerable force), and deter and weaken the illegitimate Iranian regime, all cancers on the region -- or how much it's worth to at least have a real chance of doing those good things. I wouldn't want to be asked to make the tally. Then again, it's not my survival or my country's that's on the line. I hear lots of wise people tell me that I'm horribly naive and unwise and "short-sighted" to be cheering for Israel. I'm not buying it.
Agree that this piece is pretty ignorant. While many may agree that the work in Gaza is a complete as possible, using former PMs comments on Gaza to somehow validate the opinion that generally Israel should let terror reign from hezbollah and Iran is poor. Sam seems stuck in his own short-sighted views that maintaining some calm while allowing state sponsored terror to flourish will be better than supporting Israel in its fight to protect itself. Only by accepting the reality of the enemy- what they stand for and what they’re after- can we even begin to understand Israel’s predicament and the democratic liberal world’s place in determining our future.
"just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me".
Cynicism about Bibi's motives is warranted, but that does not mean anything Israel does can be explained by them.
As a liberal Israeli who has been protesting against the government for two years now, I think some outsiders fail to comprehend the situation we're in. The fact that Hamas and Hezbollah are weakened doesn't mean they are not a threat. The fact that Iran's attack didn't cause casualties is not reassuring. These actors don't need to be on par with Israel's military to be a threat, that is the whole problem with terrorism.
The bottom line is that it isn't normal to have entities with explicit genocidal intentions on your borders, and once we saw where that leads, Israelis do not want to put up with it anymore.
So I agree that we cannot afford to lose our allies, but I also think the allies need to take Israel's security concerns more seriously. The suggestion that we can now live with a weakened Hezbollah or Hamas on our borders and wait for them to recover, or l that we can tolerate nights of waiting in the shelter for an Iranian barrage of ballistic missiles, implies they are not.
This pretty closely tracks my thoughts too. Israel arguably needs to do a better job of selling the need of its actions to its allies, but the thinking that they should simply learn to live with regular rocket attacks while bordered by (and containing) groups which desire their annihilation strikes me as unrealistic.
It's not like all the various peace accords made previously have worked. All of them have resulted in Israel being subject to rocket attacks.
That doesn't mean I think Israel's hands are clean. I'm merely pointing out a sobering reality.
This is typical of the viewpoint of the leftist elite, academic intelligentsia, who have no skin in the game, only "advice" that smacks of the "musturbation" syndrome and altruistic intent that "we must do something." Wars end only in victory or defeat, and it is up to the combatants alone to decide what is considered to apply to their desires, and at what point they consider they can accept one or are forced to accept the other. Israel is absolutely right to continue to fight this War until they determine they have a victory, for the asking for the safe return of the hostages is a ship that has sailed long ago. Whether Israel is considered an outcast by the international community, who demand a delusional solution as a "two-state solution" is chimeristic and that ship will never sail. The end of this War will end when Israel determines that it has its victory as it can never accept a defeat in the face of the support by America of billions of $$$$'s donated to Iran - the key rogue country supporting all these terrorist groups that have in their manifestos, only a "one state solution" - the Middle East with no country called Israel. Or how about this as a "ceasefire" suggestion... How about the international community demanding that Hamas return the hostages, that they laydown their arms in Gaza and Hezbollah do the same in Lebanon and surrender, and America tells Iran it will bomb their oil fields if this is not immediately carried out? Eh?
The victors get to write history (and reap popularity). If a barbaric Iranian regime is significantly weakened and/or removed as a nuclear threat the world will only remember Israel's success and heroism. If Israel fails or sues for ceasefire "peace" the world will merely kick the Jewish nation while it's down, and further try to placate the Iranian extremist government. Reagan had the strategy for long term peace right: "we win, they lose."
"Israel has appeared largely indifferent as widespread sympathy after October 7th turned to international condemnation over the conduct of the Gaza War. "
I think that the perceived indifference has much to do with the fact that the change from "widespread sympathy" -- such as it was, and often with a heavy dose of both-sidesism included-- turned in no more than a day into the "international condemnation", with the usual strong suggestion of anti-Semitism, as well as tolerance for outright anti-Semitic statements, declarations, and violence.
The world, and the Israelis in particular, have seen that kind of "sympathy" often enough before to accurately assess how little it really means.
Mr Kahn would have a situation where Hamas, though battered, will rise again, Hezbollah gets to recover from its weakest point and rise again, and the mullahs in Iran get to help them all do it, again. Meanwhile, they will build up the capability of their own and their proxy’s arsenals until the Israeli advantage is closed, and then what? Surely Israel can stop now and short term end up where they were on October 6. But that is precisely where they don’t want to —literally cannot be — in the long or perhaps even medium term. As Eli Lake put it today on the Free Press, Israel is winning and Biden wants Israel to fight to a tie. So does Mr Kahn, from what I read. I am certain Mr Kahn and Mr Biden want the best for Israel, but appeasement (“diplomacy”) has not worked and will never ever work with people whose end-goal is your death nothing more and nothing less. Know thine enemy.
Hamas and Hezbollah are like those weeds that, even if a tiny bit of them remain, they’ll grow back more abundantly than before, driven by the promise of paradise in the afterlife. These people don’t care about the misery they’re causing in this world. They’re in love with the idea of the next, and by the time they find out there’s no such thing, it will be too late. They need to be dealt with before this happens.
I tried to read this all the way through, I really did, but I just couldn’t muster the patience to get through this sorry meandering concerning Israel’s increasing international isolation due to her transgressions of international norms, proportionality, ceasefires, and numerous other turds of conventional commentating and handwringing hich characterize. There’s something objectionable and/or flat wrong at every turn. When will It sink in that peace is not secured through weakness, capitulation, or any other of the raspberries plucked from the garden of idealistic niceties (especially in a neighborhood not known for its embrace of ideas underpinning Western enlightenment?)
Consequently, the statement that “Israel cannot survive as a pariah state” fails in several respects, starting with the false assumption that Israel should give a damn about its detractors in the “international community”when those most critical of her fail themselves same short-sightedness which the author accuses
saturating the article itself, and of which it accuses . of which Israel is accusedconstitute a stated premise of the
rticle : Israel can and should remain an “international pariah” for however long it takes until her detractors and enemies in the international world pulls its
Collective head out of its ass- her survival has to be on her terms, not the
Could Israel severely damage Iran's nuclear facilities? If so, then it could do something in retaliation that that would not kill many people and that the western world would cheer. So might Saudi and some others who are worried by Iran.
I read to ensure I have considered all views on a subject. Mr. Kahn highlights the standard objections to Israel's' action as we have seen from the UN for 60 years, all based on a foundation of anti-semitism. The UN history of actions demonstrate complete ineffectiveness pursuing its' original mission. The resolution to keep Hezbollah north of the Litani river is an example of the worthlessness of participating in "foreign policy" as practiced by the UN. I read his "dribble" to help me ensure my opinions about the Middle East are based in fact; the Israelis are threatened with extinction and the foreign policy dummies arounds the world, including many in the United States, don't seem to understand an imperfect state trying to maintain its' existence deserves our support.
So sad to read this dribble in Persuasion. There is only one avenue to peace in the region and that is via an Israeli victory against the Shiite regime. Imagine the region without the Mullahs.
I think the word you’re looking for is “drivel”
Yup. With Persuasion, sometimes we read a wonderful nugget, and sometimes we read a real dud. The duds are so disappointing.
I think it’s unfair to say that Israel basically chose to be a Pariah state. Post 10/7 many states supported Israel and many blamed them. As they defended themselves they were told how to prosecute that defense. The chorus grew that what they were doing was wrong. Now I would argue they were right in most aspects. They went into Rafah when told not to and found hostages and eliminated many senior Hamas officials without increasing civilian deaths dramatically. They decimated Hezbollah leadership with minimal civilian damage. They are vilified for both. If another country in their position, being attacked on multiple fronts by enemies wishing to eliminate them, the world leaders would not treat that state as a pariah. The double standard is quite obvious.
Meanwhile, China is committing REAL genocide against Tibetans and Uyghurs, and who's telling them that they should worry about being considered international pariahs? The hypocrisy is gobsmacking.
"there was absolutely no military reason for Netanyahu not to accept ceasefire talks and wind down the Gaza operation" That head in the sand thinking is why Israel has bounced between one war and another for almost three generations. "No, don't pay any attention to the Nazi's it's just a passing phase." "No, don't pay any intention to the sworn and written Islamic intent to destroy Israel and perhaps its Jewish population with it. It's just a passing phase. " Stop the invasion of Gaza, stop the destruction of Hezbollah and Hamas, give up some land sign a peace deal, it will all work out. So how did that work out after 67, 73, Carter's 78 deal, the 94 deal on Gaza with the PLA, Clintons 00 deal, Sharm el-Sheikh Summit of 2005, the 2006 Lebanon war, the cease fires after the Gaza incursions of 2008, 2012, 2014. Each and every time the ceasefire only allowed the puppets of Iran to rest and reload. Hopefully Jews are not that insane and there founding motto of Never Again will find new meaning. This war requires capitulation, and the stars have aligned for that possibility. Be thankful Israel has leaders that understand this. Israel cannot survive for forever surrounded by pariahs to human civilization!
As long as Yahya Sinwar is alive, shooting, and holding hostages, Israel has "no military reason" to accept ceasefire talks.
Here's what I see: The world telling Israel that it shouldn't take vigorous action in its own defense; Israel doing it anyway; Israel proving doubters wrong with effective results; repeat. Only psychos are pro-war in the abstract. But some fights need fighting. I don't know how much death and destruction it's worth to crush Hamas, crush Hezbollah (which, two minutes ago, was the great, invulnerable force), and deter and weaken the illegitimate Iranian regime, all cancers on the region -- or how much it's worth to at least have a real chance of doing those good things. I wouldn't want to be asked to make the tally. Then again, it's not my survival or my country's that's on the line. I hear lots of wise people tell me that I'm horribly naive and unwise and "short-sighted" to be cheering for Israel. I'm not buying it.
Agree that this piece is pretty ignorant. While many may agree that the work in Gaza is a complete as possible, using former PMs comments on Gaza to somehow validate the opinion that generally Israel should let terror reign from hezbollah and Iran is poor. Sam seems stuck in his own short-sighted views that maintaining some calm while allowing state sponsored terror to flourish will be better than supporting Israel in its fight to protect itself. Only by accepting the reality of the enemy- what they stand for and what they’re after- can we even begin to understand Israel’s predicament and the democratic liberal world’s place in determining our future.
"just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me".
Cynicism about Bibi's motives is warranted, but that does not mean anything Israel does can be explained by them.
As a liberal Israeli who has been protesting against the government for two years now, I think some outsiders fail to comprehend the situation we're in. The fact that Hamas and Hezbollah are weakened doesn't mean they are not a threat. The fact that Iran's attack didn't cause casualties is not reassuring. These actors don't need to be on par with Israel's military to be a threat, that is the whole problem with terrorism.
The bottom line is that it isn't normal to have entities with explicit genocidal intentions on your borders, and once we saw where that leads, Israelis do not want to put up with it anymore.
So I agree that we cannot afford to lose our allies, but I also think the allies need to take Israel's security concerns more seriously. The suggestion that we can now live with a weakened Hezbollah or Hamas on our borders and wait for them to recover, or l that we can tolerate nights of waiting in the shelter for an Iranian barrage of ballistic missiles, implies they are not.
This pretty closely tracks my thoughts too. Israel arguably needs to do a better job of selling the need of its actions to its allies, but the thinking that they should simply learn to live with regular rocket attacks while bordered by (and containing) groups which desire their annihilation strikes me as unrealistic.
It's not like all the various peace accords made previously have worked. All of them have resulted in Israel being subject to rocket attacks.
That doesn't mean I think Israel's hands are clean. I'm merely pointing out a sobering reality.
This is typical of the viewpoint of the leftist elite, academic intelligentsia, who have no skin in the game, only "advice" that smacks of the "musturbation" syndrome and altruistic intent that "we must do something." Wars end only in victory or defeat, and it is up to the combatants alone to decide what is considered to apply to their desires, and at what point they consider they can accept one or are forced to accept the other. Israel is absolutely right to continue to fight this War until they determine they have a victory, for the asking for the safe return of the hostages is a ship that has sailed long ago. Whether Israel is considered an outcast by the international community, who demand a delusional solution as a "two-state solution" is chimeristic and that ship will never sail. The end of this War will end when Israel determines that it has its victory as it can never accept a defeat in the face of the support by America of billions of $$$$'s donated to Iran - the key rogue country supporting all these terrorist groups that have in their manifestos, only a "one state solution" - the Middle East with no country called Israel. Or how about this as a "ceasefire" suggestion... How about the international community demanding that Hamas return the hostages, that they laydown their arms in Gaza and Hezbollah do the same in Lebanon and surrender, and America tells Iran it will bomb their oil fields if this is not immediately carried out? Eh?
The victors get to write history (and reap popularity). If a barbaric Iranian regime is significantly weakened and/or removed as a nuclear threat the world will only remember Israel's success and heroism. If Israel fails or sues for ceasefire "peace" the world will merely kick the Jewish nation while it's down, and further try to placate the Iranian extremist government. Reagan had the strategy for long term peace right: "we win, they lose."
"Israel has appeared largely indifferent as widespread sympathy after October 7th turned to international condemnation over the conduct of the Gaza War. "
I think that the perceived indifference has much to do with the fact that the change from "widespread sympathy" -- such as it was, and often with a heavy dose of both-sidesism included-- turned in no more than a day into the "international condemnation", with the usual strong suggestion of anti-Semitism, as well as tolerance for outright anti-Semitic statements, declarations, and violence.
The world, and the Israelis in particular, have seen that kind of "sympathy" often enough before to accurately assess how little it really means.
Mr Kahn would have a situation where Hamas, though battered, will rise again, Hezbollah gets to recover from its weakest point and rise again, and the mullahs in Iran get to help them all do it, again. Meanwhile, they will build up the capability of their own and their proxy’s arsenals until the Israeli advantage is closed, and then what? Surely Israel can stop now and short term end up where they were on October 6. But that is precisely where they don’t want to —literally cannot be — in the long or perhaps even medium term. As Eli Lake put it today on the Free Press, Israel is winning and Biden wants Israel to fight to a tie. So does Mr Kahn, from what I read. I am certain Mr Kahn and Mr Biden want the best for Israel, but appeasement (“diplomacy”) has not worked and will never ever work with people whose end-goal is your death nothing more and nothing less. Know thine enemy.
Hamas and Hezbollah are like those weeds that, even if a tiny bit of them remain, they’ll grow back more abundantly than before, driven by the promise of paradise in the afterlife. These people don’t care about the misery they’re causing in this world. They’re in love with the idea of the next, and by the time they find out there’s no such thing, it will be too late. They need to be dealt with before this happens.
I tried to read this all the way through, I really did, but I just couldn’t muster the patience to get through this sorry meandering concerning Israel’s increasing international isolation due to her transgressions of international norms, proportionality, ceasefires, and numerous other turds of conventional commentating and handwringing hich characterize. There’s something objectionable and/or flat wrong at every turn. When will It sink in that peace is not secured through weakness, capitulation, or any other of the raspberries plucked from the garden of idealistic niceties (especially in a neighborhood not known for its embrace of ideas underpinning Western enlightenment?)
Consequently, the statement that “Israel cannot survive as a pariah state” fails in several respects, starting with the false assumption that Israel should give a damn about its detractors in the “international community”when those most critical of her fail themselves same short-sightedness which the author accuses
saturating the article itself, and of which it accuses . of which Israel is accusedconstitute a stated premise of the
rticle : Israel can and should remain an “international pariah” for however long it takes until her detractors and enemies in the international world pulls its
Collective head out of its ass- her survival has to be on her terms, not the
Empty promises and navel-gazing
Could Israel severely damage Iran's nuclear facilities? If so, then it could do something in retaliation that that would not kill many people and that the western world would cheer. So might Saudi and some others who are worried by Iran.
I was going to write about how foolish this was, but I see that others have done the work for me.
This was pretty bad.
I read to ensure I have considered all views on a subject. Mr. Kahn highlights the standard objections to Israel's' action as we have seen from the UN for 60 years, all based on a foundation of anti-semitism. The UN history of actions demonstrate complete ineffectiveness pursuing its' original mission. The resolution to keep Hezbollah north of the Litani river is an example of the worthlessness of participating in "foreign policy" as practiced by the UN. I read his "dribble" to help me ensure my opinions about the Middle East are based in fact; the Israelis are threatened with extinction and the foreign policy dummies arounds the world, including many in the United States, don't seem to understand an imperfect state trying to maintain its' existence deserves our support.