I think the argument that "global elites have no intention of doing unthinkable thing xyz to you" would be a lot more compelling if the years 2020-2023 hadn't happened. But alas they did, and, the global elites showed zero restraint at embracing the most extreme forms of authoritarism (how many times did we hear that China's approach to covid was the right one, except for our pesky Western freedoms and constitutions), and they were constrained ONLY by our more populist leaders like De Santis. So yeah I am little paranoid now, and while I don't want an "equal but opposite" policy in the other direction, I do support some countervailing forces to land us in the middle.
Another thing I've learned reading Persuasion is that on the rare occasions that democratic elections produce results that Davos doesn't like, it isn't actually democracy at all. It's called "populism" and it is Very Very Bad.
Does the fact that the grip of power between 2020-2023 (but really it was over by 2021) instantly disappeared have any weight here?
If the globalist elites were so much in power and they got their guy Biden to x, y or z, why is the US govt authority at the same level in 2024 as say 2018?
(If it's more authoritative in your view, please state how as specifically as possible.)
Isn't it key to the 'slippery slope of authority' argument for it not to retreat?
Paranoia is pre-judging and condemning a proposal before it has been fairly debated. Paranoia is seeing the name De Santis and unleashing a torrent of vilification without engaging in dialogue. Paranoia is demanding to be given protection from harm by the state when nobody has threatened you.
I thought this platform was called Persuasion! That means dialogue not immediate condemnation.
If you would like dialogue about this, can you talk about the law banning cultured meat and whether your think it correct and why? Perhaps a counter example would be helpful?
All framing of left versus right leads to nowhere. The definitions of left and right are themselves fluid. The Democratic Party was historically the free-trade party. In my youth, the left tended to be free-speech advocates and civil-liberties defenders. Somehow, being an advocate for freedom of expression has become right-wing. Friedman’s free trade has given way to Trump’s tariffs. For every example of supposed left versus right, one can find a counter argument.
The word disinformation, in my experience, should usually be replaced with heresy.Those with totalitarian tendencies tend to become true believers in whatever party or movement they identify with. Both parties try to restrict speech that they don’t like. Closing beaches and parks was anti-science and totalitarian. Stop Woke is anti-intellectual and totalitarian. It never matters for group identity that the group changes its values like most people change socks. Those who wield power, and their followers, want to use that power. Think Robespierre. It matters little whether or not we slap the label of left versus right on them.
Pick a controversy, chances are that the positions have changed. Immigration. Restricting it was a union cause and the Wall Street Journal was all in on nearly open borders. In France, Mélenchon shares poisonous views about Russia and Ukraine with Le Pen.
My view of Persuasion has been that it is for people who adhere to the liberal values that formed a consensus after the nightmare conflagrations brought on by totalitarianism. These values are neither left nor right. I reject the lazy left versus right both sides-ism that dominates pedestrian newspapers. They deserve to go out of business. Persuasion should avoid the trap.
Seems to be typical pork-barrel politics in a state where agriculture and extraction industries still have undue power.
I do not see this as different from ethanol. Decades have passed since any serious person believed that ethanol helped the environment. Yet, I have to send a check to a farmer somewhere every time I put gas in my car. Good politics, but bad all around.
This article would have been more interesting if it spoke about the history of "pork-choppers" in the Sunshine State and how the old power base of Jim-Crow Democrats shifted to the Republican Party in the early and mid-seventies.
Adam Smith said it best in The Wealth of Nations « This monopoly has so much increased the number of some particular tribes of them that, like an overgrown standing army, they have become formidable to the government, and upon many occasions intimidate the legislature . »
The influence of this particular tribe has been uniquely terrible, cruel, and unjust in Florida. The agricultural and resource industries were responsible for Jim Crow, the denial of basic human rights guaranteed under the Constitution, the refusal to reapportion after the Census, lynching, the denial of education to Blacks, and the abuse of the legal system.
They still have power and I think that the author discounts all of this by trying to make the issue what I shall paraphrase as « right-wingers are conspiracy theorists. » I Hope that I am not being unjust in that assessment. At least you, Adam, and I agree that this is all bad policy. Thanks.
Well that is a big question. This is about law-making and due process. It is also about competing ideas and groups. De Santis is an elected officer so he has to comply with the legislative procedures. He also is expected to act in the interests of the voters in his state. All these things take time and effort, much more than is needed to write an article.
I do not know enough about the matter under consideration to comment in detail. All I can say is that everybody will get the chance to critique the draft legislation and lobby for or against it. This is called democracy and it is the best system there is.
Journalists and opponents get to write about it and some do it very well. Others start their article with words like paranoia and immediately mark themselves as biased and closed-minded. I expect better of Persuasion than that.
I’m with DeSantis on this. Fake meat! Give me a break. It’s astonishing that such a thing exists. Here in socialist Cuba, we produce meat in the old-fashioned way.
I like DeSantis’ instincts, but he needs to educate himself concerning the actual characteristics of the Communist Party of China and the People’s Republic of China, as well as the characteristics of the countries of the global South today that have declared that they are constructing socialism.
I don’t suppose DeSantis would have the time or the inclination to read my Substack column.
I think the argument that "global elites have no intention of doing unthinkable thing xyz to you" would be a lot more compelling if the years 2020-2023 hadn't happened. But alas they did, and, the global elites showed zero restraint at embracing the most extreme forms of authoritarism (how many times did we hear that China's approach to covid was the right one, except for our pesky Western freedoms and constitutions), and they were constrained ONLY by our more populist leaders like De Santis. So yeah I am little paranoid now, and while I don't want an "equal but opposite" policy in the other direction, I do support some countervailing forces to land us in the middle.
You are literally demonstrating the point of this article, down to the histrionics about global elites, China and authoritarianism.
Another thing I've learned reading Persuasion is that on the rare occasions that democratic elections produce results that Davos doesn't like, it isn't actually democracy at all. It's called "populism" and it is Very Very Bad.
Western and constrained? Can you develop your argument here?
Does the fact that the grip of power between 2020-2023 (but really it was over by 2021) instantly disappeared have any weight here?
If the globalist elites were so much in power and they got their guy Biden to x, y or z, why is the US govt authority at the same level in 2024 as say 2018?
(If it's more authoritative in your view, please state how as specifically as possible.)
Isn't it key to the 'slippery slope of authority' argument for it not to retreat?
Paranoia is pre-judging and condemning a proposal before it has been fairly debated. Paranoia is seeing the name De Santis and unleashing a torrent of vilification without engaging in dialogue. Paranoia is demanding to be given protection from harm by the state when nobody has threatened you.
I thought this platform was called Persuasion! That means dialogue not immediate condemnation.
If you would like dialogue about this, can you talk about the law banning cultured meat and whether your think it correct and why? Perhaps a counter example would be helpful?
All framing of left versus right leads to nowhere. The definitions of left and right are themselves fluid. The Democratic Party was historically the free-trade party. In my youth, the left tended to be free-speech advocates and civil-liberties defenders. Somehow, being an advocate for freedom of expression has become right-wing. Friedman’s free trade has given way to Trump’s tariffs. For every example of supposed left versus right, one can find a counter argument.
The word disinformation, in my experience, should usually be replaced with heresy.Those with totalitarian tendencies tend to become true believers in whatever party or movement they identify with. Both parties try to restrict speech that they don’t like. Closing beaches and parks was anti-science and totalitarian. Stop Woke is anti-intellectual and totalitarian. It never matters for group identity that the group changes its values like most people change socks. Those who wield power, and their followers, want to use that power. Think Robespierre. It matters little whether or not we slap the label of left versus right on them.
Pick a controversy, chances are that the positions have changed. Immigration. Restricting it was a union cause and the Wall Street Journal was all in on nearly open borders. In France, Mélenchon shares poisonous views about Russia and Ukraine with Le Pen.
My view of Persuasion has been that it is for people who adhere to the liberal values that formed a consensus after the nightmare conflagrations brought on by totalitarianism. These values are neither left nor right. I reject the lazy left versus right both sides-ism that dominates pedestrian newspapers. They deserve to go out of business. Persuasion should avoid the trap.
Do you have an opinion on the cultured meat ban in Florida?
Reading https://www.flgov.com/2024/05/01/governor-desantis-signs-legislation-to-keep-lab-grown-meat-out-of-florida/ I see that the WEF is mentioned, but mostly it is about keeping the support of the meat and dairy industry, which is significant.
Seems to be typical pork-barrel politics in a state where agriculture and extraction industries still have undue power.
I do not see this as different from ethanol. Decades have passed since any serious person believed that ethanol helped the environment. Yet, I have to send a check to a farmer somewhere every time I put gas in my car. Good politics, but bad all around.
This article would have been more interesting if it spoke about the history of "pork-choppers" in the Sunshine State and how the old power base of Jim-Crow Democrats shifted to the Republican Party in the early and mid-seventies.
You're noting that special interests have power and that exercising that power hurts the whole.
I agree. It also makes this bad policy.
Adam Smith said it best in The Wealth of Nations « This monopoly has so much increased the number of some particular tribes of them that, like an overgrown standing army, they have become formidable to the government, and upon many occasions intimidate the legislature . »
The influence of this particular tribe has been uniquely terrible, cruel, and unjust in Florida. The agricultural and resource industries were responsible for Jim Crow, the denial of basic human rights guaranteed under the Constitution, the refusal to reapportion after the Census, lynching, the denial of education to Blacks, and the abuse of the legal system.
They still have power and I think that the author discounts all of this by trying to make the issue what I shall paraphrase as « right-wingers are conspiracy theorists. » I Hope that I am not being unjust in that assessment. At least you, Adam, and I agree that this is all bad policy. Thanks.
I think the meat ban is dumb, and a bad policy. But to waive off all concerns about our Davos overlords as "paranoia" is even dumber.
Well that is a big question. This is about law-making and due process. It is also about competing ideas and groups. De Santis is an elected officer so he has to comply with the legislative procedures. He also is expected to act in the interests of the voters in his state. All these things take time and effort, much more than is needed to write an article.
I do not know enough about the matter under consideration to comment in detail. All I can say is that everybody will get the chance to critique the draft legislation and lobby for or against it. This is called democracy and it is the best system there is.
Journalists and opponents get to write about it and some do it very well. Others start their article with words like paranoia and immediately mark themselves as biased and closed-minded. I expect better of Persuasion than that.
Lab-grown meat - the latest causality in the political culture war in the USA
I’m with DeSantis on this. Fake meat! Give me a break. It’s astonishing that such a thing exists. Here in socialist Cuba, we produce meat in the old-fashioned way.
I like DeSantis’ instincts, but he needs to educate himself concerning the actual characteristics of the Communist Party of China and the People’s Republic of China, as well as the characteristics of the countries of the global South today that have declared that they are constructing socialism.
I don’t suppose DeSantis would have the time or the inclination to read my Substack column.
https://charlesmckelvey.substack.com/
👏👏👏