I think a lot more folks on the center-right would be open to discussion if the left and center-left would just acknowledge the enormous progress we as a country have made over the last thirty years in race relations. My wife and I just visited a beach popular with the working class a few weekends ago, and there were “rednecks,” African…
I think a lot more folks on the center-right would be open to discussion if the left and center-left would just acknowledge the enormous progress we as a country have made over the last thirty years in race relations. My wife and I just visited a beach popular with the working class a few weekends ago, and there were “rednecks,” African-Americans, and Hispanics swimming together in the same river, drinking together in the same dive bars, and listening to the same lousy Sublime cover band. If you get your information from Twitter or what passes for journalism these days, you’d expect Thunderdome, instead of blue-collar families of all races just having a good day at the beach.
I grew up in a time when there were still de facto black and white beaches in Virginia. I’ve seen amazing progress here in the Commonwealth during my lifetime. I take my dog to a park in a suburb of Richmond which was known for its overt racism when I was a kid. It appalled the “genteel” white establishment, who may have been racist but with a sense of noblesse oblige. Today, you see mixed race couples at the park with their dogs, practicing their swing on the baseball diamond, having picnics, etc, and everyone is friendly. Even fifteen, twenty years ago, you would have expected for the whites to give them the cold shoulder or whisper about it in concerned tones, if not overtly telling them they weren’t welcome. I’m not saying there isn’t racism today, or that the racism there is doesn’t need to be addressed, but just a few years ago things were so much worse. We should celebrate the progress we’ve made more, IMHO, instead of letting this CRT metastasize out of the social sciences into society as a whole.
By whom was the park known as overtly racist? How did you, as a kid, avail yourself of the knowledge? Can you provide some specific examples of the white establishment? Who were they? What made them genteel - heir skin color or their wealth?
The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it is indistinguishable from fan-fiction. It is weightless.
When did segregated beaches become illegal in VA? Is it your claim that happened in the last 30 years? Please so cite your source on this topic.
Are you familiar with Seaview Beach and Amusement Park? It was established in VA in the 40's as a 'coloreds only' resort. It featured a carousel, Ferris wheel and skeeball, along with fireworks, beauty pageants and performances by Louis Armstrong and Fats Domino Jr. In its heyday, it attracted 10,000 tourists on summer weekends.
Do you know when it went away? Do you know why? Does it have something to do with the laws that govern segregated beaches? What are the dates involved?
I moved out of VA in the 80's and the racist hellscape you describe wasn't present. What do you imagine might have changed since then to manifest the conditions you describe? It wasn't legislation.
It wasn’t the park that was overtly racist. It was the area it was in. The white working class moved out of the East End of Richmond during the ‘60’s and ‘70’s into Mechanicsville, and they brought a pile of race resentment with them because of it.
I grew up in the western end of Hanover County, the county in which Mechanicsville was located, and there was a palpable sense in the difference between how African-Americans were treated east and west of Interstate 95.
I grew up in the white middle class establishment circles of the County. I know how people talked about “coloreds” on either side of the divide. I’m sure there was a class aspect to the divide. Eastern Hanover and Mechanicsville were blue collar comeheres, whereas Western Hanover had more established, long-term families of both races who knew and had grown up together. It was a softer, more paternalistic racism, but it was racism nonetheless.
Blacks went to Buckroe Beach in Hampton, and whites went to Virginia Beach and Colonial Beach, which was the beach I’d mentioned in my first comment. Oceanview in Norfolk transitioned from white to black to white retirees in my lifetime. Under segregation, Buckroe had been designated a black beach, and that continued by custom long after Jim Crow had been repealed.
And don’t attack me for using anecdotal data when all you’ve offered is anecdotal data. I never said that Virginia in the ‘80’s was a hellscape; I’m saying it’s a helluva lot better now.
I have used my anecdotal evidence to counter your as an illustration of the uselessness of anecdotal evidence.
Anyone can say anything. This establishes nothing.
How can you demonstrate that anything you claimed to have happened actually did happen? Anecdotal evidence won't get you there.
If you cannot demonstrate it to others, it seems obvious that you have not demonstrated it to yourself. How can you ensure that you aren't taking one or two random events from a very specific place at a very specific time, enshrined them in memory, and discounted all other counter evidence?
Even if you could establish that this is not the case, upon what basis can you rationally extrapolate those incidents as representative of VA, or the US writ large?
You are free to use anecdotal data all you wish. You are in no way immune from scrutiny when doing so.
I would have worn a wire when I was in my teens if I knew that I’d be harangued like this by a fellow anti-critical race theorizer. I didn’t know I’d need anything more than my first person experience.
You are absolutely correct. I’ve lived in Central Virginia for forty-four years, and I have never observed anything going on around me. And my extensive study of Virginia history was all for naught. Good grief. This is a comments section, not an academic journal.
Are you lazily compositing a high school history quiz about one of your pet topics and feeling clever? I know the type. I've read all your comments and all I know is, you think you're smarter then everyone else. Your tone is so righteous and patronizing that I'm dying to put your in your place, but you didn't bother to stake one. I taught high school social studies to justice involved students in Philly. here's the quiz I would have given them, for you: 1) Give 3 definitions for CRT, a- reactionary, b- moderate, c- radical 2) Using the example of, Seaview Beach and Amusement Park, describe the relationship between socioeconomic pressure and 'ground level' racism?
3) Structural racism? You should ponder those questions, and then self reflect.
If you had read all of my comments, you wouldn't have to ask about CRT. It is covered in more depth elsewhere.
If you care to retreat on that claim and actually read all of my comments, you can respond there if you feel compelled to.
In what ways do you know that I think I am smarter than everyone else? That is a pretty bold claim for me to make through you, given the 8 billion others in competition. I must have some pretty compelling evidence for that claim. What is it? How did you come by it?
To what tone do you refer? Where is it expressed? How have you measured it? What if you are wrong?
What is my place? How have you determined it? By what authority would you put me in it? Through what coercive power?
Thank you for sharing your quiz. What are the answers they gave? How did you evaluate the answers? What did you learn in the process?
It seems a staggering coincidence that you are quizzing them on Seaview Beach and Amusement park. How fortunate that we found each other. I am interested in their answers to that one.
3): That isn't a question. That is two words and a question mark. If you are interested in knowing about structural racism - try defining your terms and testing your premises. It is a good exploratory exercise. Then seek out a primary source and evaluate the evidence at hand.
If you wish to ask a question, I would love to help, but I would need it in the form of a question.
As for self-reflection -- is it the appropriate model of learning in this case? All one can learn through self reflection is what one already has taken in. One is already at the level of cognition of the information. All one is doing is adding more at the same level, or changing the angle from which one considers it.
To break new ground, to provoke intellectual growth, and to surface novel insight, you might try seeking a higher order of thought. This is to say, thought that you are not capable of, but are capable, through struggle, of apprehending. The topic could be CRT, structural racism, or whatever, but it would work on anything. It is that struggle that will elevate your cognition, and cultivate a higher order of thought within yourself.
It isn't easy, but again, that is the point. If it were easy, it wouldn't work.
I think a lot more folks on the center-right would be open to discussion if the left and center-left would just acknowledge the enormous progress we as a country have made over the last thirty years in race relations. My wife and I just visited a beach popular with the working class a few weekends ago, and there were “rednecks,” African-Americans, and Hispanics swimming together in the same river, drinking together in the same dive bars, and listening to the same lousy Sublime cover band. If you get your information from Twitter or what passes for journalism these days, you’d expect Thunderdome, instead of blue-collar families of all races just having a good day at the beach.
That experience has been consistent for decades before 30 years ago. CRT seeks to regress and make that experience impossible, not more ubiquitous.
I grew up in a time when there were still de facto black and white beaches in Virginia. I’ve seen amazing progress here in the Commonwealth during my lifetime. I take my dog to a park in a suburb of Richmond which was known for its overt racism when I was a kid. It appalled the “genteel” white establishment, who may have been racist but with a sense of noblesse oblige. Today, you see mixed race couples at the park with their dogs, practicing their swing on the baseball diamond, having picnics, etc, and everyone is friendly. Even fifteen, twenty years ago, you would have expected for the whites to give them the cold shoulder or whisper about it in concerned tones, if not overtly telling them they weren’t welcome. I’m not saying there isn’t racism today, or that the racism there is doesn’t need to be addressed, but just a few years ago things were so much worse. We should celebrate the progress we’ve made more, IMHO, instead of letting this CRT metastasize out of the social sciences into society as a whole.
By whom was the park known as overtly racist? How did you, as a kid, avail yourself of the knowledge? Can you provide some specific examples of the white establishment? Who were they? What made them genteel - heir skin color or their wealth?
The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it is indistinguishable from fan-fiction. It is weightless.
When did segregated beaches become illegal in VA? Is it your claim that happened in the last 30 years? Please so cite your source on this topic.
Are you familiar with Seaview Beach and Amusement Park? It was established in VA in the 40's as a 'coloreds only' resort. It featured a carousel, Ferris wheel and skeeball, along with fireworks, beauty pageants and performances by Louis Armstrong and Fats Domino Jr. In its heyday, it attracted 10,000 tourists on summer weekends.
Do you know when it went away? Do you know why? Does it have something to do with the laws that govern segregated beaches? What are the dates involved?
I moved out of VA in the 80's and the racist hellscape you describe wasn't present. What do you imagine might have changed since then to manifest the conditions you describe? It wasn't legislation.
It wasn’t the park that was overtly racist. It was the area it was in. The white working class moved out of the East End of Richmond during the ‘60’s and ‘70’s into Mechanicsville, and they brought a pile of race resentment with them because of it.
I grew up in the western end of Hanover County, the county in which Mechanicsville was located, and there was a palpable sense in the difference between how African-Americans were treated east and west of Interstate 95.
I grew up in the white middle class establishment circles of the County. I know how people talked about “coloreds” on either side of the divide. I’m sure there was a class aspect to the divide. Eastern Hanover and Mechanicsville were blue collar comeheres, whereas Western Hanover had more established, long-term families of both races who knew and had grown up together. It was a softer, more paternalistic racism, but it was racism nonetheless.
Blacks went to Buckroe Beach in Hampton, and whites went to Virginia Beach and Colonial Beach, which was the beach I’d mentioned in my first comment. Oceanview in Norfolk transitioned from white to black to white retirees in my lifetime. Under segregation, Buckroe had been designated a black beach, and that continued by custom long after Jim Crow had been repealed.
And don’t attack me for using anecdotal data when all you’ve offered is anecdotal data. I never said that Virginia in the ‘80’s was a hellscape; I’m saying it’s a helluva lot better now.
I have used my anecdotal evidence to counter your as an illustration of the uselessness of anecdotal evidence.
Anyone can say anything. This establishes nothing.
How can you demonstrate that anything you claimed to have happened actually did happen? Anecdotal evidence won't get you there.
If you cannot demonstrate it to others, it seems obvious that you have not demonstrated it to yourself. How can you ensure that you aren't taking one or two random events from a very specific place at a very specific time, enshrined them in memory, and discounted all other counter evidence?
Even if you could establish that this is not the case, upon what basis can you rationally extrapolate those incidents as representative of VA, or the US writ large?
You are free to use anecdotal data all you wish. You are in no way immune from scrutiny when doing so.
I would have worn a wire when I was in my teens if I knew that I’d be harangued like this by a fellow anti-critical race theorizer. I didn’t know I’d need anything more than my first person experience.
You are absolutely correct. I’ve lived in Central Virginia for forty-four years, and I have never observed anything going on around me. And my extensive study of Virginia history was all for naught. Good grief. This is a comments section, not an academic journal.
He’s a man who’s live a well observed life. Or not. But he’s hardly making big claims. He is communicating. You are why a President Trump exists.
Are you lazily compositing a high school history quiz about one of your pet topics and feeling clever? I know the type. I've read all your comments and all I know is, you think you're smarter then everyone else. Your tone is so righteous and patronizing that I'm dying to put your in your place, but you didn't bother to stake one. I taught high school social studies to justice involved students in Philly. here's the quiz I would have given them, for you: 1) Give 3 definitions for CRT, a- reactionary, b- moderate, c- radical 2) Using the example of, Seaview Beach and Amusement Park, describe the relationship between socioeconomic pressure and 'ground level' racism?
3) Structural racism? You should ponder those questions, and then self reflect.
If you had read all of my comments, you wouldn't have to ask about CRT. It is covered in more depth elsewhere.
If you care to retreat on that claim and actually read all of my comments, you can respond there if you feel compelled to.
In what ways do you know that I think I am smarter than everyone else? That is a pretty bold claim for me to make through you, given the 8 billion others in competition. I must have some pretty compelling evidence for that claim. What is it? How did you come by it?
To what tone do you refer? Where is it expressed? How have you measured it? What if you are wrong?
What is my place? How have you determined it? By what authority would you put me in it? Through what coercive power?
Thank you for sharing your quiz. What are the answers they gave? How did you evaluate the answers? What did you learn in the process?
It seems a staggering coincidence that you are quizzing them on Seaview Beach and Amusement park. How fortunate that we found each other. I am interested in their answers to that one.
3): That isn't a question. That is two words and a question mark. If you are interested in knowing about structural racism - try defining your terms and testing your premises. It is a good exploratory exercise. Then seek out a primary source and evaluate the evidence at hand.
If you wish to ask a question, I would love to help, but I would need it in the form of a question.
As for self-reflection -- is it the appropriate model of learning in this case? All one can learn through self reflection is what one already has taken in. One is already at the level of cognition of the information. All one is doing is adding more at the same level, or changing the angle from which one considers it.
To break new ground, to provoke intellectual growth, and to surface novel insight, you might try seeking a higher order of thought. This is to say, thought that you are not capable of, but are capable, through struggle, of apprehending. The topic could be CRT, structural racism, or whatever, but it would work on anything. It is that struggle that will elevate your cognition, and cultivate a higher order of thought within yourself.
It isn't easy, but again, that is the point. If it were easy, it wouldn't work.
Umm. Huh. Hmmm. Nope. Not now. Maybe never.
Yes. Deep thinkers seem to often bypass life and end up in a discursive flush.
I think they'd be more open to discussion if we stopped calling them racists.
I don't know that "we" call them racists, or that there is a "we" at all. You speak for yourself.