Trump’s illness offers a real test of each person’s empathic capacity: Can you feel concern and compassion for the president as a human being, while vigorously disagreeing with particular policies or with things that he says? Seems like we used to be able to do that more easily. When President Reagan was shot, for example, my memory is that the country, across party lines, was not only stunned but also deeply concerned for his welfare. That was only 40 years ago.
For all I despised Reagan's political philosophy, the man could act decently to his fellow man. He and Tip O'Neil had a famous friendship for example. You can actually feel deeply concerned for the welfare of people like that, they show you their humanity.
I’m just worn out with this president’s chaos and meanness. I don’t wish him ill really, but I do wish he would stop causing so much devastation in his wake. What I really wish at this moment is that he would just shut up and go away. If I’m failing the test of empathy, so be it. He exceeds my capacity.
On some Christian groups I drift in there has been an interesting perspective voiced.. to me both amusing and potentially cautionary. It goes something like this:
Now we are going to find out if we are dealing with Saul or Nebuchadnezzar... if he is very sick and loses or or dies, he is Saul, and is getting just deserts. if he lives and his diagnosis works to his advantage he is Nebuchadnezzar, and we are getting our just deserts.
Besides that as a Slav derived individual and comparative religion junky I never fail to chuckle at such darkLy humorous bible joke, I think there is something deeper about humility and the dangers of Schadenfreude that is often missed: it’s not easy to determine very often who exactly is getting a comeuppance.
It's interesting that the pleasure of watching an enemy like Trump suffer is the same as the pleasure experienced by his supporters at the suffering of the wealthy intellectual elite they so loathe. They feel that their pleasure at your suffering is karmic as well, so I guess we can all join hands in the brotherhood and sisterhood of twisting the knife.
I see why you say that righteous forms of schadenfreude can be an important form of anti-hypocrisy. Sometimes calling out hypocrisy is a way of expressing allegiance to the principle that the hypocrite betrays. But not always. The kind of schadenfreude that forms the underside of the Trump campaign is purely cynical. "they celebrate our pain" (think of fabricated accusations of schadenfreude are the stock in trade of conspiracy theory websites) "....so it's okay for us to celebrate theirs" (think: own the libs").
It is. We should seek to practice lovingkindness towards everyone - including our enemies. We should do our best to seek justice and redemption without finding delight in the suffering of others. It may be necessary for others to suffer (and to cause them to suffer) in the pursuit of a more important good, but we should be clear that a person's suffering is always a harm.
Is suffering always a harm? It is a very natural and inevitable part of life. Painful consequences to some actions teach us broader lessons, and even suffering that befalls us through no fault of our own can make us more resilient as we learn that we can get through it. Some suffering strengthens our connections to friends, family and community as people pull together to help someone overcome hardships. Sometimes, suffering is the doorway to spiritual growth.
Having said that, I’m not looking forward to my next trip through that doorway. But I know it will come.
It is not "wicked" it is human. Nobody should attribute wickedness or evil to human emotions around what is perceived justice.
We feel the same sense of pleasure when we see someone who has committed a crime have to pay the price. We feel the same sense of pleasure when we warn someone not to do something stupid or they may get hurt. They do it and they get hurt. We don't feel "glad" about it, we feel "I told you so".
Trump brought his illness upon himself by refusing to mask, by refusing to social distance, by refusing to do the things that the doctors told him would make him safe.
I think it is actually better expressed as "getting back what you put out" or Karma. Screw around, get burned is also a better way of putting it.
There is nothing evil in having the satisfaction that the world works as science and rationality tells you it will.
Many wicked actions involve human emotions around perceived justice. Genocide, to pick a particularly horrific example, is often targeted at classes of people who are perceived as a mortal threat to those perpetrating genocide. It is precisely the delight in the destruction and suffering of others, and the perceived justice in it, that makes genocide such a common historical event.
I have no guilt being gleeful at the news that Trump and many in his personal orbit have now contracted Covid, a disease which has killed more than 200,000 Americans and could have been slowed if Trump hadn't made wearing a mask a political litmus test. Trump, his Republican enablers, and MAGA supporters have reveled in the cruelty and purposeful malice. Since hearing the news, I am the happiest I've been for the past four years. Call it schadenfreude if you want; I call it karma.
What if it were his young grandchildren? What if one of them had a hyper-immune response to the virus and died? Would you still delight in his suffering?
Those two scenarios are not remotely similar. One is direct suffering of an individual who has wrought suffering all across the country and continues to do so. Your example is indirect suffering for that individual brought about by the pain of an innocent child. Not at all the same.
Actually, at this point I’m not sure I would care about his suffering at the loss of a loved one, always assuming he loves anyone but himself. I would be genuinely devastated at the loss of the child though.
You are assuming people in his orbit "love" him. However, malignant narcissists like Trump use people like tools and as a person who has experienced narcissism close-up, I can assure you that the suffering of a malignant narcissist does not make those under their thumb suffer.
The Dutch language makes it easy to express your feelings, "eigen schuld, dikke bult". Your own fault, thick bump (one that you get when you slip and fall on your ass. We do not have any problems calling a spade, a spade and when you go drink some beers in a pub and throw some darts with other guys and get Covid, well, you ask for it. Yes, we will come to the funeral. Americans are weepy slobbering people and the English language does not help.
Trump’s illness offers a real test of each person’s empathic capacity: Can you feel concern and compassion for the president as a human being, while vigorously disagreeing with particular policies or with things that he says? Seems like we used to be able to do that more easily. When President Reagan was shot, for example, my memory is that the country, across party lines, was not only stunned but also deeply concerned for his welfare. That was only 40 years ago.
For all I despised Reagan's political philosophy, the man could act decently to his fellow man. He and Tip O'Neil had a famous friendship for example. You can actually feel deeply concerned for the welfare of people like that, they show you their humanity.
I have yet to see anything like that from Trump.
I’m just worn out with this president’s chaos and meanness. I don’t wish him ill really, but I do wish he would stop causing so much devastation in his wake. What I really wish at this moment is that he would just shut up and go away. If I’m failing the test of empathy, so be it. He exceeds my capacity.
Also, Trump is no Reagan.
On some Christian groups I drift in there has been an interesting perspective voiced.. to me both amusing and potentially cautionary. It goes something like this:
Now we are going to find out if we are dealing with Saul or Nebuchadnezzar... if he is very sick and loses or or dies, he is Saul, and is getting just deserts. if he lives and his diagnosis works to his advantage he is Nebuchadnezzar, and we are getting our just deserts.
Besides that as a Slav derived individual and comparative religion junky I never fail to chuckle at such darkLy humorous bible joke, I think there is something deeper about humility and the dangers of Schadenfreude that is often missed: it’s not easy to determine very often who exactly is getting a comeuppance.
Oh how true that last statement is!
It's interesting that the pleasure of watching an enemy like Trump suffer is the same as the pleasure experienced by his supporters at the suffering of the wealthy intellectual elite they so loathe. They feel that their pleasure at your suffering is karmic as well, so I guess we can all join hands in the brotherhood and sisterhood of twisting the knife.
Yes, the same! That's why I think it's better not to indulge it, or at least better not to express publicly. Politics is the realm of accountability, not karma. And the feeling in this context gives you an illusion of accountability. And it is an illusion ... https://www.tampabay.com/ellipsis-preview/HJC7QP55AZHRXDZM74YZ3HBSV4/?_ignoreCache=true
I see why you say that righteous forms of schadenfreude can be an important form of anti-hypocrisy. Sometimes calling out hypocrisy is a way of expressing allegiance to the principle that the hypocrite betrays. But not always. The kind of schadenfreude that forms the underside of the Trump campaign is purely cynical. "they celebrate our pain" (think of fabricated accusations of schadenfreude are the stock in trade of conspiracy theory websites) "....so it's okay for us to celebrate theirs" (think: own the libs").
Yes, the whole campaign and his cult are just built around the idea of "owning the libs".
They could not render any real political philosophy even if you threatened them with death.
It is. We should seek to practice lovingkindness towards everyone - including our enemies. We should do our best to seek justice and redemption without finding delight in the suffering of others. It may be necessary for others to suffer (and to cause them to suffer) in the pursuit of a more important good, but we should be clear that a person's suffering is always a harm.
Is suffering always a harm? It is a very natural and inevitable part of life. Painful consequences to some actions teach us broader lessons, and even suffering that befalls us through no fault of our own can make us more resilient as we learn that we can get through it. Some suffering strengthens our connections to friends, family and community as people pull together to help someone overcome hardships. Sometimes, suffering is the doorway to spiritual growth.
Having said that, I’m not looking forward to my next trip through that doorway. But I know it will come.
I think suffering is always a harm. It may be a necessary condition for achieving a greater good. But, that just improves the net balance.
It is not "wicked" it is human. Nobody should attribute wickedness or evil to human emotions around what is perceived justice.
We feel the same sense of pleasure when we see someone who has committed a crime have to pay the price. We feel the same sense of pleasure when we warn someone not to do something stupid or they may get hurt. They do it and they get hurt. We don't feel "glad" about it, we feel "I told you so".
Trump brought his illness upon himself by refusing to mask, by refusing to social distance, by refusing to do the things that the doctors told him would make him safe.
I think it is actually better expressed as "getting back what you put out" or Karma. Screw around, get burned is also a better way of putting it.
There is nothing evil in having the satisfaction that the world works as science and rationality tells you it will.
Many wicked actions involve human emotions around perceived justice. Genocide, to pick a particularly horrific example, is often targeted at classes of people who are perceived as a mortal threat to those perpetrating genocide. It is precisely the delight in the destruction and suffering of others, and the perceived justice in it, that makes genocide such a common historical event.
I have no guilt being gleeful at the news that Trump and many in his personal orbit have now contracted Covid, a disease which has killed more than 200,000 Americans and could have been slowed if Trump hadn't made wearing a mask a political litmus test. Trump, his Republican enablers, and MAGA supporters have reveled in the cruelty and purposeful malice. Since hearing the news, I am the happiest I've been for the past four years. Call it schadenfreude if you want; I call it karma.
What if it were his young grandchildren? What if one of them had a hyper-immune response to the virus and died? Would you still delight in his suffering?
Those two scenarios are not remotely similar. One is direct suffering of an individual who has wrought suffering all across the country and continues to do so. Your example is indirect suffering for that individual brought about by the pain of an innocent child. Not at all the same.
Actually, at this point I’m not sure I would care about his suffering at the loss of a loved one, always assuming he loves anyone but himself. I would be genuinely devastated at the loss of the child though.
Do you think a person can suffer without inflicting suffering on those around them? This seems like a likely result in most cases. No?
Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean...
You are assuming people in his orbit "love" him. However, malignant narcissists like Trump use people like tools and as a person who has experienced narcissism close-up, I can assure you that the suffering of a malignant narcissist does not make those under their thumb suffer.
The Dutch language makes it easy to express your feelings, "eigen schuld, dikke bult". Your own fault, thick bump (one that you get when you slip and fall on your ass. We do not have any problems calling a spade, a spade and when you go drink some beers in a pub and throw some darts with other guys and get Covid, well, you ask for it. Yes, we will come to the funeral. Americans are weepy slobbering people and the English language does not help.